Comments on: Interdependence in Debian, how to suffer less from it http://raphaelhertzog.com/2009/09/01/interdependence-in-debian/ Insider infos, master your Debian/Ubuntu distribution Sat, 04 Feb 2012 10:38:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Buxy http://raphaelhertzog.com/2009/09/01/interdependence-in-debian/#comment-3005 Buxy Tue, 01 Sep 2009 12:56:11 +0000 http://raphaelhertzog.com/?p=215#comment-3005 Neil, there are several points in what you say. I agree that updating this information is small work in itself, it is paperwork. It should still be very small fraction of the time you allocate to Debian, most of it should be filled only once and the rest is about informing people that you're busy or on vacation (this part we already do via debian-private, it would just be done in another way). I certainly don't want us to announce every week of much time we're going to spend on Debian the next week, that's irrealistic. It's not about forecasts, it's about habits you have (if you don't have any, you can also say so of course). I agree that sometimes things go wrong and you can't update your information, it's no big deal, the lack of updates is useful information in itself and we always have the MIA team for this case. We could also let other DD update it for you once they've had news through another channel. In the end, it's not micro-management, you manage yourself and nobody else does. The infrastructure is just to share some info with other individuals that might have to interact with you sometimes in the future as part of their Debian work. More teams is good, but teams are not people, you need to know who in the team is currently available if you really want some quick interaction. Sending a mail to the list does not always work, sometimes everyone believes that someone else will reply... Neil, there are several points in what you say.

I agree that updating this information is small work in itself, it is paperwork. It should still be very small fraction of the time you allocate to Debian, most of it should be filled only once and the rest is about informing people that you’re busy or on vacation (this part we already do via debian-private, it would just be done in another way). I certainly don’t want us to announce every week of much time we’re going to spend on Debian the next week, that’s irrealistic. It’s not about forecasts, it’s about habits you have (if you don’t have any, you can also say so of course).

I agree that sometimes things go wrong and you can’t update your information, it’s no big deal, the lack of updates is useful information in itself and we always have the MIA team for this case. We could also let other DD update it for you once they’ve had news through another channel.

In the end, it’s not micro-management, you manage yourself and nobody else does. The infrastructure is just to share some info with other individuals that might have to interact with you sometimes in the future as part of their Debian work.

More teams is good, but teams are not people, you need to know who in the team is currently available if you really want some quick interaction. Sending a mail to the list does not always work, sometimes everyone believes that someone else will reply…

]]> By: Neil Williams http://raphaelhertzog.com/2009/09/01/interdependence-in-debian/#comment-3004 Neil Williams Tue, 01 Sep 2009 12:35:29 +0000 http://raphaelhertzog.com/?p=215#comment-3004 Meta-data like this would only be useful if constantly updated, at which point it becomes part of the burden that makes those DD's who are already struggling to find time start consider retirement. I had a huge amount of time for Debian and Emdebian until very recently and through ill health I have had to cut that by more than half. When that happened, I was completely unable to even correspond with the majority of people in Debian - I could just about send an email to debian-private but that was just luck that I was somewhere with an internet connection. It was 4 weeks before I had another chance to send email. Events happen, things go wrong, things outside Debian and over which we have absolutely no control. Please don't pressurise DD's in such situations by making them think that this availability data has to be updated even when it is technically impossible due to lack of access. I felt bad enough at the time without that guilt trip. None of us can forecast the future, just because I *think* I'll have 10 hours available next week, does not mean that I can promise to reply to email on a daily or weekly basis. It depends on whether that is a single block of 10 hours or 20 slots of 30 minutes. Some emails can take hours to prepare. Isn't this just micro-management by another guise? It's barely a step from expecting every DD to be on twitter 24/7. I deliberately dropped off IRC because I was fed up with people pestering me when I was trying to do something else. I don't want the Project nagging me as well. A better solution here is more teams where even if one member is unexpectedly unavailable, others can step in. There should be less stress on individuals, not more. Meta-data like this would only be useful if constantly updated, at which point it becomes part of the burden that makes those DD’s who are already struggling to find time start consider retirement.
I had a huge amount of time for Debian and Emdebian until very recently and through ill health I have had to cut that by more than half. When that happened, I was completely unable to even correspond with the majority of people in Debian – I could just about send an email to debian-private but that was just luck that I was somewhere with an internet connection. It was 4 weeks before I had another chance to send email.
Events happen, things go wrong, things outside Debian and over which we have absolutely no control. Please don’t pressurise DD’s in such situations by making them think that this availability data has to be updated even when it is technically impossible due to lack of access. I felt bad enough at the time without that guilt trip.
None of us can forecast the future, just because I *think* I’ll have 10 hours available next week, does not mean that I can promise to reply to email on a daily or weekly basis. It depends on whether that is a single block of 10 hours or 20 slots of 30 minutes. Some emails can take hours to prepare.
Isn’t this just micro-management by another guise? It’s barely a step from expecting every DD to be on twitter 24/7.
I deliberately dropped off IRC because I was fed up with people pestering me when I was trying to do something else. I don’t want the Project nagging me as well.
A better solution here is more teams where even if one member is unexpectedly unavailable, others can step in. There should be less stress on individuals, not more.

]]> By: Buxy http://raphaelhertzog.com/2009/09/01/interdependence-in-debian/#comment-3003 Buxy Tue, 01 Sep 2009 06:30:40 +0000 http://raphaelhertzog.com/?p=215#comment-3003 Martin, it's your only merit in this specific story of my life. :-) But keep up the good work in general! I understand that we are not robots and that the data will never be fully accurate, but I believe it would still be useful. DEP2 should precise the kind of accuracy that we're looking for. At the very least, I would like some official management of the available/busy/not reachable status information so that we don't wait on people that simply won't respond currently. For the rest, it's not about ensuring that someone is available but to have an idea of of how to best interact with him. Martin, it’s your only merit in this specific story of my life. :-) But keep up the good work in general!

I understand that we are not robots and that the data will never be fully accurate, but I believe it would still be useful. DEP2 should precise the kind of accuracy that we’re looking for. At the very least, I would like some official management of the available/busy/not reachable status information so that we don’t wait on people that simply won’t respond currently. For the rest, it’s not about ensuring that someone is available but to have an idea of of how to best interact with him.

]]> By: martin f. krafft http://raphaelhertzog.com/2009/09/01/interdependence-in-debian/#comment-3002 martin f. krafft Tue, 01 Sep 2009 05:41:42 +0000 http://raphaelhertzog.com/?p=215#comment-3002 My "only merit", huh? I better work on that... ;) Anyway, when reading your ideas about a Debian Contributor "time sheet", I could not help but wonder how regular contributions are. Of course it would be nice if we knew when a Debian contributor is available, and heck, wouldn't it be nice if we could expect everyone to be available from 9:00 to 18:00, but I doubt this is possible or could possibly reflect reality. I can give you a rough average of how much time I can spend on Debian every week, but then that's an average. I can also tell you that I am most active in the early mornings and very little on the weekend, but that doesn't mean that I will be available every morning, nor that I won't hop on IRC on a rainy Saturday. My point is that we're all (hopefully) somewhat spontaneous and our days aren't routine to the point where free time is always allocated. Mine isn't, and I wouldn't want that. BUt I think it would be great to know how maintainers categorise their own dedication and time availability for the packages they maintain. It's always questionable how accurate such data would be, but I am tempted to think it'll be better than what we have now. My “only merit”, huh? I better work on that… ;)

Anyway, when reading your ideas about a Debian Contributor “time sheet”, I could not help but wonder how regular contributions are. Of course it would be nice if we knew when a Debian contributor is available, and heck, wouldn’t it be nice if we could expect everyone to be available from 9:00 to 18:00, but I doubt this is possible or could possibly reflect reality.

I can give you a rough average of how much time I can spend on Debian every week, but then that’s an average. I can also tell you that I am most active in the early mornings and very little on the weekend, but that doesn’t mean that I will be available every morning, nor that I won’t hop on IRC on a rainy Saturday. My point is that we’re all (hopefully) somewhat spontaneous and our days aren’t routine to the point where free time is always allocated. Mine isn’t, and I wouldn’t want that.

BUt I think it would be great to know how maintainers categorise their own dedication and time availability for the packages they maintain. It’s always questionable how accurate such data would be, but I am tempted to think it’ll be better than what we have now.

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